Manufacturer: HamiltonI don't think it makes one iota of difference to the current value/desirability of this watch, whether some of the early examples of the 23j 16s Illinois Ball may or may not have left Ball with normal spade hands. Porcelain enamel 'Railway Special' dial New mid-empire glass crystal. Gold filled Hamilton marked case. Lubricated with Quicken micro ball bearing diamond ball bearing infused oil. Grade: 992B The movement was serviced 4/21/21 and the watch is running and keeping time.
Ball Pocket Watch S Serial Number OfThe model reference is engraved in the same place at the 12 oclock end. You will need to remove the bracelet/strap to see it. The serial number of your watch is engraved on the case at the 6 oclock end between the lugs. 10k gold filled case, 21-jewel movement, 6 positions, lever Locating your Rolex serial number. Cleveland, Ohio, 1st half-20th century. A Ball Watch Company Official Railroad.![]() The market might not even be swayed by an example in an unopened box.I forgot to note in my earlier post that for serial numbers below 1,000, there is '0' prefix, as seen in the below example of a caliber 435 (no suffix). The market has always said that this watch should have pierced hands by paying less for examples without. The market says this watch should have pierced hands. However, the market always tells the truth about value/desirability of anything. ![]() Many collectors are doing this. I believe he erred and further perpetuated what I suspect is the modern myth of the "correct" hands. It had spade hands which he replaced (at a cost of several hundred dollars). I heard from one collector who acquired a nearly unused example from the family of the original owner. All they go by is the statement in a popular price guide that the pierced hands are correct. They turn the Bunn Special logo upside down on a movement drawing just so we could read it better.I found 2 pics in the Meggers Illinois Encycl with the same serial number. We have all seen catalogs and ads with known errors in them. Some of the "facts in print" aren't facts at all, and in this case we will probably never know. Jerry is relying on what we all like to see, hard facts in print. John makes a lot sense to me. Those hands are pretty hard to look at. Why don't we see them on Ham balls, Waltham balls, or other RR models?Lets face it. That's overwhelming.Hard to believe that only the ball Illinois owners decided, in mass, to replace their spade hands with the pierced hands - cannot imagine they appealed to that many people. Polished) are more likely to be period than those with the blue center. The second hands that I saw were loose new-old-stock ones from an old Ball material pile.Re the minute hands, in my opinion those with the "silver" center (i. Any body know what second hand came on these (Sorry)?Re second hands, there do exist a few that have a pointer similar to that seen on the hour and minute hands, but of the dozen or so Ball-Illinois mvts that I've seen in person none (that I can recall) had this second hand on them. Many of these individuals definitely used them to replace the "incorrect" hands on their Ball-Illinois watches.FWIW, my own unprovable opinion is that some Ball-Illinois mvts left the store with pierced hands and some didn't. In other words, they're not all pristine original-owner estate finds.The aforementioned Ball material pile that surfaced a number of years ago had perhaps 30 or more pairs of the pierced hands in it and these were distributed over the years to various collectors and dealers. Who knows? I don't.The upshot, if you want to pay the bucks needed to replace your spade hands with the fancy pierced style ones then I'd look for those with the "silver" center just to be on the safe side.As for Kent's database, it's indeed very impressive that 53 of 55 have the pierced hands, but keep in mind that most of his sightings are watches that have been through the hands of collectors and dealers. For instance, it's known that at some point in time Elgin made some blue center hands (such hands are known to have come from the remnants of the Elgin company) and perhaps Illinois or Hamilton or their hand supplier did the same thing. They might be and they might not be. (whatever their names were in the 1920s-1930s), was somewhat fanatical about the appearence of railroad standard watches and the ability to read the time correctly. And the Railroad Time Service Co. Ball, and by extension, the Ball Watch Co. There is only a string of logic that goes something like this:1. I wish that I still had a few pair left, but alas they were sold off years ago.I personally believe that spade hands are correct on the Illinois-Ball ORRS, but alas, like everybody else, I have no documentation to back this up. Besides, Illinois was run by Hamilton by the time the watches in question were made.As Greg pointed out, the data base that Ed and I have been building contains examples that are mostly drawn from dealer offerings, either at marts, mail-order or on the internet. Those who might be tempted to say that there was a difference because the movement was made by Illinois would do well to remember that the watches were built the way the Ball Co. All had the same heavy spade hands that were generally used on watches in railroad time service. Neither the 21-jewel Hamilton-Ball 999, which was produced simultaneously, nor the later 23-jewel Hamilton-Ball 998, nor the 21-jewel Hamilton-Ball 999B, nor the 21-jewel Record-Ball 435 series, used pierced hands. Make mac monitors used for windowsTwo more that have pierced hands are noted as the hands being New Old Stock (NOS) replacements. 48 are noted as having correct/original (pierced) hands. This is likely - when we started, it was difficult to know what to record and what not to, the data base had a different purpose back then.There are now 91 different examples of the 16-size, 23-jewel Illinois-Ball ORRS in the data base. As has been pointed out, everybody who could get the pierced hands put them on the watches and offered the watches with "correct/original hands." Those that couldn't get them might not have mentioned the hands at all.Or, we might not have recorded the hands. Only a small number of these came from dealer lists of the mid-to-late 1980s (possibly before the stock of pierced hands hit the market). Maize:frown:Interesting read)Mr. Ball and Watch inspector Glazier from Greeley Colorado and Mr Dixon from North Platte Nebraska and a Mr. (NOT specific to Illinois) This exchange between WEbb C. Or, I might have missed one or two.And here is another tidbit on a "related" note from a meeting of the Safety First Union Pacific Watch inspectors meeting in Denver in 1916 as to HANDS on a watch. This explains the smaller number than the one Charlie mentioned. The rest have no notation.Some duplicate reports, or those for which the last digit or two of the serial number wasn't known, were not counted this time. On the plain dial, you will see they have and extra heavy spade on the hour hand, which, to me, has always been considered a mighty good pair of hands and while we are making suggestions as to the dials, wouldn't it be just as well to suggest that we use a certain grade of hand?The men are using the watches with the poorest kind of light and why not have a heavy hand. And While we are talking about his, I would like to call your attention to the Waltham dial, and also the hands. Awfully small and another thing I have noticed: the spade on their hands are both alike, and in some instances it is hard to tell whether you are looking at the minute hand or the hour hand. It has occured to me several times that we use a heavyArabic dial, and some of the watch companies put out a very small hand.
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